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Thursday, March 19, 2009

1級 Grammar 26-30

ADMINISTRATORS' NOTE:

We're doing our best to prepare for, and hopefully, to help you prepare for the 日本語能力試験1級, but please remember: 1級, by its very nature, consists of grammar that is difficult, highly nuanced, and most of the time, rarely used in regular conversations. That's why it's important that you use our posts as references, to be compared with other study sources, and even more important that you
CHECK THE COMMENTS after each post. We're lucky to receive corrections and clarifications from native speakers and other foreigners more knowledgeable than we, and they don't always make it back into the body of the post. Thanks, and 頑張って!

1級 Grammar 26-30

Why I am still doing grammar is a mystery after the colorful confessions Jeff made last week. I suppose it's only fair, though, after I pretty much threatened his life. But, at long as we're airing Jeff's indiscretions at my apartment, I can fatten up the list a little...


26. ~たところで
Even ~ is of no use
たとえ~ても

When you want to express the hopelessness or futility of a situation, this one might come in handy. Just take care that you keep that "で" on the end, since ところ is one of those words that lends itself to a thousand definitions.

Ex. ジェフの非人道的犯罪のリストは永遠までも続けられる。百年で百人が書いたところで、全部を記録できない。だからこの記事で、非ブレット的犯罪をばれます。

27. ~だに
even ~
~さえ

Every bit as tricky as the old grammar point I've linked above. Especially common are cases where だに is followed by a verb in negative form (changing the definition to "NOT even") or an adjective with a negative connotation. Where did all the happy grammar go?

Cases of "考えるだに", "想像するだに", and others where the mere thought of something is enough to get a response are also abundant.

Ex. ジェフは僕のアパートにいりびたっていた間、僕の高い物をすべてヤフーオークションで売った。その商売で得たお金で石弓を買って、毒矢を僕に討った。思い返すだに涙が止らない。


28. ~たりとも
(Not) even a single ~

I know "single" is not actually included in the definition above, but ALL the examples listed in our book are used with some unit measured with "1". "一円たりとも", "一瞬たりとも", "1分たりとも", etc. The explanation says cases like this are most frequent, and since a lot of the people (like us) probably don't have a perfect grasp on when to use it, employing one of something before "たりとも" is your safest bet.

Ex. 僕はアパートから出かけても、安心できなかった。なぜならば、ジェフは駅やインターネットや職場ででも僕について恐ろしいうわさをばらまいたからだ。この佐賀市に僕の顔を見ても逃げ出さずにいられる人は一人たりともいません。

29. ~たる
For those that are ~,

Another expression that doesn't translate well into English, especially given how it usually a applies to a specific set of usages. First off, the phrase that comes before "たる" should be an occupation, organization, or group of some high renown. You wouldn't use it for criminals or your average joe. What you WOULD use it for is police officers, CEOs, or pro athletes. Then the book suggests that 者 is the most common word to come after たる, making the whole phrase something like "Those who would deign call themselves police officers," "警察官たる者." I would've made the translation above more directly related to this if not for the fact that book only says these are the 多い cases, or common ones. As with grammar point 28, I suggest sticking pretty strictly to these guidelines if you want to be understood. Also: it's used mostly in writing.

Remember all that?

Ex. 人間たる者、慈悲を一片すくなくともできるでしょう?と言えばジェフという奴はいったい何のものだ?!

30. ~つ~つ
To ~ and ~
both ~ and ~

Okay - yes, that definition sucks. But a ridiculous number of possibilites can fit into this grammar point. When you actually utilize it, you fill the "~" spaces with either opposite words ("coming and going", "sitting and standing") or a word and its passive tense, like "punch and be punched", or "teach and be taught". To make it work, take the ~ます stems of two words and plant some "つ"s on the end. Oila! Easier than it sounds!

Though also...harder. In trying to make my example sentence, I googled tons of possibilities that I thought would work out, and none of them showed up. Use with caution!!

Ex. ジェフはパン屋さんで働いているから、僕は少し安心できると思った。でもジェフという名の悪魔がパン屋さんでクリームパイを作り、僕のところに来て、そのパイで顔をなぐったんだ!ずっとそのままで彼は行きつ戻りつ、俺を苦痛します。

9 comments:

Matt said...

What does びこった mean? And are you using the UNICOM 実力アップ series, or are all 1級文法編 exactly the same?

Emi said...

Sorry for putting in my two cents' worth, but let me answer Matt's question. I guess Brett mentioned 「はびこった」which means "to spread something."
ひどい病気が、はびこった。
悪がはびこる社会は、断然許せない!
You can use it like this.

Well, let me give you some advice about your Japanese writings.
1) ジェフは僕のアパートにはびこった間 → いりびたっていた間
2) その商売の得たお金で → その商売で得たお金で
3) 毒にぬれた矢を僕に打った。 → 毒矢を僕に射った。
4) 思い出すだに涙が流れられてならない。 → 思い返すだに、涙が止まらない。

I'd say 「~だに」is very old-fashinoed, so we rarely hear it in conversation.


5) なぜならば、ジェフは...ばらまいた。 → ばらまいたからだ。
6) 僕の顔を見たら逃げずにいられる人は → 僕の顔を見ても逃げ出さずいられる人は
7) ジェフはパン屋さんで働いた来たと、→ ジェフはパン屋で働いているから
8) 僕が危険をなくなると思った。 → 僕は少し安心できると思った

I'm wondering why it is. That might be because working at a bakery makes people being kind? Actually, I think it makes sense.XD


9) でもそのジェフと言われている悪魔がパン屋さんでクリームパイを作って、→ でも、ジェフという名の悪魔がパン屋さんでクリームパイを作り、

10) 僕がいるところに来て、パイを顔に打った。→ 僕のところに来て、そのパイで顔をなぐったんだ!


Poor, Brett...

11) ずっとそのままで彼は行きつ戻りつ、俺を苦痛します。 → 同じことのくり返しで、僕はいつまでも苦しんでいます。

Emi said...

Sorry for putting in my two cents' worth, but let me answer Matt's question. I guess Brett mentioned 「はびこった」which means "to spread something."
ひどい病気が、はびこった。
悪がはびこる社会は、断然許せない!
You can use it like this.

Well, let me give you some advice about your Japanese writings.
1) ジェフは僕のアパートにはびこった間 → いりびたっていた間
2) その商売の得たお金で → その商売で得たお金で
3) 毒にぬれた矢を僕に打った。 → 毒矢を僕に射った。
4) 思い出すだに涙が流れられてならない。 → 思い返すだに、涙が止まらない。

I'd say 「~だに」is very old-fashinoed, so we rarely hear it in conversation.


5) なぜならば、ジェフは...ばらまいた。 → ばらまいたからだ。
6) 僕の顔を見たら逃げずにいられる人は → 僕の顔を見ても逃げ出さずいられる人は
7) ジェフはパン屋さんで働いた来たと、→ ジェフはパン屋で働いているから
8) 僕が危険をなくなると思った。 → 僕は少し安心できると思った

I'm wondering why it is. That might be because working at a bakery makes people being kind? Actually, I think it makes sense.XD


9) でもそのジェフと言われている悪魔がパン屋さんでクリームパイを作って、→ でも、ジェフという名の悪魔がパン屋さんでクリームパイを作り、

10) 僕がいるところに来て、パイを顔に打った。→ 僕のところに来て、そのパイで顔をなぐったんだ!


Poor, Brett...

11) ずっとそのままで彼は行きつ戻りつ、俺を苦痛します。 → 同じことのくり返しで、僕はいつまでも苦しんでいます。

Emi said...

Oops-a-daisy, I posted the same comment twice! Please delete one of them. And I made a mistake.

6) 僕の顔を見たら逃げずにいられる人は → 僕の顔を見ても逃げ出さずいられる人は

「僕の顔を見ても逃げ出さずにいられる人は」 is currect.

Defendership said...

Matt: We are, indeed, using the same books. Great if you want to follow along, not so great if you're looking for a supplement to a different book! My understanding from previous tests is that these books are not necessarily comprehensive. They do a damn good job, but it's in your best interest to at least flip through other books (if you're in Japan) on the same topic to see if anything you haven't seen before pops up.

Also, yeah, see what Emi wrote for my misspelling, haha even if it wasn't the right word to begin with!

Emi: Awesome! Thank you so much. Hopefully my sentences will require fewer and fewer corrections in the future. You were right about はびこった! I wanted to say "the time when Jeff INFESTED my house", but all my dictionaries were coming up short, so I just gave a shot in the dark.

I think I went ahead and made all the corrections you gave me in the main text. I had a feeling 行きつ戻りつ didn't work in that context, but I was having trouble thinking of a sentence that fit the theme AND used that phrase... I'll see if I can't make something later that'll work. Thanks again for your help!

Emi said...

I'm afraid you will continue to have some currections from me, because I'm a hairsplitter! This is a joke, don't worry. Your japanese is great, but I guess some trivial suggestions make your writings look better.

Emi said...

Sorry for bothering you, but I need to write this. I've just written about "Ikitsu Modoritsu" on my blog. I'm glad if it can be an example for "back and forth" for you. See you.

Matt said...

Thanks for the clarification, Emi. I'll have to check out your blog, too.

I love the UNICOM series as much as one can love test preparation books. It's reaffirming to know that someone else is using them, and it's helpful to see more example sentences and your interpretation of each point. Do you use the other UNICOM books, as well? If so, how well do you think the 読解 book prepares us for the reading section? Have you taken it before?

jljzen88 said...

I think you can use ~つ~つ with a set combination of contrasting verbs.

I noticed some of the examples listed in my textbooks also have their own entries in my deshi jisho...which leads me to believe that these are, in fact, kimari monku-like set expressions.

Some of the ones I happened upon are:

行きつ戻りつ: Back and forth, to and fro
ためつすがめつ: Take a close look at
抜きつ抜かれつ: Be neck and neck (envision a race)
追いつ追われつ: Cat and mouse game (with the intention of one party trying to catch the other)
押しつ押されつ: Push and pull (though I'd think 押しつ引っ張りつ would be better, no? But that doesn't seem to work)
持ちつ持たれつ: Give and take; mutual assistance
組んず解れつ: To grapple (I'm guessing this one takes the ず in 組む because it's just easier to pronounce).